David Grusch has made some of his strongest and most detailed public claims yet about alleged recovered UAP craft, non-human occupants, secret government programs and attempts to reverse-engineer unknown technology.
During an interview with Dr. Phil, the former U.S. intelligence officer Grusch claimed that he personally viewed photographs and video connected to alleged recovery operations, including images of recovered craft and dead occupants. He also said that, to his knowledge, some occupants had been recovered alive.
Perhaps even more remarkably, Grusch claimed that people involved in these programs had experienced a strange form of “consciousness communication” with the beings — something he acknowledged most people would simply call telepathy.
Grusch did not publicly produce the alleged craft, bodies, photographs, videos or classified documents during the interview. His statements therefore remain claims that require independent verification.
Grusch Says He Personally Saw Photos and Video of Recovered Craft
One of the most important parts of the interview concerns the type of evidence Grusch says he has personally viewed.
Grusch explained that people associated with what he described as a retrieval program brought audiovisual material outside normal channels so that he could examine it. According to him, this included both photographs and video.
He said the material showed recovered vehicles and some of the dead occupants allegedly retrieved with them.
Grusch acknowledged in the interview that he was not physically present during the original recovery operations and did not personally handle the alleged bodies or craft. However, he says he was shown photographic and video evidence by people involved in those programs.
He also said he interviewed numerous individuals who had direct participation in the subject, including people at senior levels of government. According to Grusch, he brought some of these individuals to the Intelligence Community Inspector General so investigators could hear their testimony directly instead of relying only on his account.
What Did the Alleged Occupants Look Like?
Dr. Phil questioned Grusch directly about whether he had seen images of the beings allegedly found with recovered craft. Grusch said yes.
He claimed that some recovered vehicles appeared to have been unoccupied, which he suggested could mean they were drones or remotely operated vehicles. Other craft, however, were allegedly piloted.
Grusch then made one of the stranger claims of the interview: some of the alleged occupants reportedly resemble the classic image of small “gray” beings that has existed in UFO culture for decades.
He referred to reports from witnesses who have described small gray humanoid figures and said some of the beings he had been shown looked similar to those descriptions.
The interview became even more extraordinary when Dr. Phil asked a simple question: had any pilots or occupants been recovered alive? Grusch answered yes.
He claimed he knows individuals who experienced direct interaction with living occupants during what he described as a “detainment situation.”
Grusch himself admitted that the statement sounds like something from science fiction. Nevertheless, he insisted that this was what had occurred according to the information available to him.
He also said he had discussed the issue with a former Cabinet-level official who had worked directly on the subject for a former vice president. He did not publicly identify all the individuals involved, provide records of the alleged detention or offer physical evidence that a living non-human being had ever been held by the U.S. government.
Still, this is one of the strongest claims Grusch has publicly made because it moves beyond the idea of recovered biological material or bodies. He is now alleging that living occupants were encountered and detained.
He Claims Humans Communicated With Them
Dr. Phil then asked whether people were able to communicate with the alleged occupants. Grusch again answered yes. But according to him, the communication was not necessarily ordinary speech.
He described some form of “consciousness communication,” adding that most people would probably call it telepathy. Grusch was careful to say he does not understand how such a process would work. He also said that he has never personally experienced anything like it.
Instead, he claims people he knows who participated in retrieval operations reported experiencing this unusual form of communication. According to Grusch, some people felt it while approaching a recovered vehicle during the process of securing the location and waiting for transportation.
That is a remarkable allegation because it suggests the phenomenon, if Grusch’s sources are correct, might involve something considerably stranger than advanced machines traveling through the atmosphere.
At the same time, this is one area where the difference between direct and secondhand evidence is especially important. Grusch says he did not personally experience telepathic communication. He is relaying what people involved in alleged recovery operations told him.
How Many Craft Does Grusch Say Have Been Recovered?
Another major moment came when Dr. Phil asked Grusch to estimate the number of alleged vehicles recovered over the years. Grusch said the number was “more than 25 but fewer than 100”. However, Grusch said even that estimate is difficult to determine accurately because he believes the government no longer has a complete inventory.
According to his account, beginning in the early 2000s, major defense contractors allegedly became involved in conducting some retrieval operations “off books” while operating under the awareness of certain government agencies.
Grusch suggested that this resulted in some recovered material ending up in what he described as private possession within the defense-contractor world.
If his account is accurate, this would create a major oversight problem because Congress and even elements of the executive branch might not know exactly what exists or where everything is located.
Once again, no inventory of these dozens of alleged vehicles was released during the interview.
Discs, Tic Tacs, Boomerangs and Egg-Shaped Craft
Grusch also said the alleged recovered objects do not all look alike. He described a surprisingly wide range of shapes.
These allegedly include classic disc-shaped vehicles, Tic Tac-shaped objects, boomerangs, crescent-shaped craft, egg-shaped vehicles and another design he compared to a “sunfish” or “boot heel.” The variety, according to Grusch, makes determining their origin extremely difficult.
He said investigators cannot simply point to a location in space and establish where a particular object originated. He also suggested there may be different types of occupants associated with different types of craft.
That raises a possibility Grusch repeatedly returned to throughout the interview: perhaps the UAP phenomenon does not have a single explanation. Instead of one civilization operating one kind of vehicle, he suggested there could potentially be multiple categories of anomalous intelligence.
Grusch Warns Against Calling Everything Extraterrestrial
One of the most fascinating parts of the conversation was Grusch’s refusal to say that everything associated with UAP necessarily comes from another planet. He acknowledged that an extraterrestrial explanation could account for some of the phenomenon.
But he believes people should remain open to other possibilities.
Grusch used the term “ultraterrestrial” and suggested that some intelligence might have originated on Earth, left and later returned. He also discussed the idea of a hidden “shadow biome” — essentially some form of intelligence existing alongside humanity that we do not properly understand.
Then he brought up the oceans.
Grusch noted how much remains unknown about Earth’s deep oceans and speculated about whether some advanced intelligence could have developed in or around the seabed. He even added a playful “wink wink” while discussing that possibility.
This should not be misunderstood as Grusch proving that an advanced civilization lives beneath the ocean. He offered it as one possible explanation among several.
His broader argument was that automatically labeling every unexplained object as an alien spacecraft could itself be an assumption.
Strange Orbs and Plasma-Like Phenomena
Grusch suggested that some unusual sightings appear less like conventional solid vehicles and more like plasma or luminous objects displaying intelligent behavior.
However, he offered another possibility. A structured craft could potentially exist behind the visible plasma, he said, with the glowing effect being produced by an unknown propulsion system.
Grusch openly admitted that some of these phenomena are extremely difficult to understand without capturing or scientifically studying them.
This part of the interview stands out because Grusch did not pretend to have an answer for everything. On several occasions, he said there were major parts of the phenomenon that he simply did not understand.
How the U.S. Allegedly Tracks UAP
According to him, he was once cleared into a program that allowed him to learn about certain “signatures” emitted by the alleged craft and how the United States tracks them.
He claimed UAP detection is hidden “in plain sight” inside the broader national intelligence architecture.
In simple terms, Grusch appeared to suggest that existing intelligence and surveillance systems can collect information relevant to UAP, while specialized hardware and software on the back end perform additional processing.
An ordinary user of the larger intelligence system might not necessarily know that some components are being used for UAP detection. Grusch did not reveal the specific sensors, technical signatures or software involved, saying parts of the subject remain classified.
Grusch says he initially became aware of the alleged recovery and reverse-engineering effort. He claimed he gained access to intelligence reporting from a foreign peer adversary concerning what that country believed the United States was doing with UAP.
Remarkably, Grusch said he initially learned more from the foreign intelligence reporting about alleged U.S. retrieval and reverse-engineering activity than he learned officially from his own government.
Dr. Phil also asked about attempts to understand the propulsion systems behind the alleged vehicles. Grusch confirmed that reverse engineering was an important part of the issue. He then said he had personally been cleared into what he called some of the “fruits of our labor.”
In other words, Grusch claims he was exposed to classified technology associated in some way with research into these alleged materials or vehicles. He refused to identify the specific technology because he said some of it remains unacknowledged and classified.
According to Grusch, certain developments could benefit humanity, be responsibly introduced into society and create economic opportunities.
He also argued that keeping these technologies hidden could amount to defrauding American taxpayers if Congress continues funding conventional classified research while another more advanced collection of technology remains separated from normal oversight.
The interview became especially interesting when Dr. Phil asked Grusch whether he knew where alleged craft were currently stored. Grusch said he knew historical locations up until the point when his sources stopped working at those facilities.
He claimed that, until a couple of years ago, he was aware of U.S. government and contractor facilities containing documentation, physical material and cadavers. However, he stressed that material can be moved when officials believe a location has been exposed.
Because he is no longer inside the government and no longer has sources continuously reporting from those locations, Grusch said he cannot guarantee that everything is still where it was several years ago.
He argued that authorized officials would need to physically inspect the facilities, question witnesses and potentially conduct search-and-seizure operations to establish what remains.
Dr. Phil asked whether, if the president provided the necessary authorization, Grusch could personally take him to a location where they could see an alleged craft and a cadaver. Grusch immediately responded that he could. He said they could take a “little field trip out west.”
Dr. Phil pressed further, asking whether there would still be something physically present — a real three-dimensional object they could walk up to and touch. Grusch again said yes.
Grusch is essentially saying that he knows locations that authorized investigators could inspect.
He has openly discussed experiencing PTSD related to his military service. He said authorities attempted to revisit whether he had properly disclosed his mental-health history, leading to a major investigation.
According to Grusch, he handed over his medical records and was cleared. He says a criminal investigation involving him and some associates followed, but he was cleared of wrongdoing there as well.
Grusch also alleged that information concerning his PTSD was leaked from government security files to a journalist shortly after his congressional testimony in 2023. Whether someone believes David Grusch or remains deeply skeptical, this interview matters because of how specific some of his claims have become.
He is no longer discussing only vague rumors of hidden UFO programs.
Grusch now says he personally viewed photographs and videos allegedly showing recovered craft and dead occupants. He claims more than 25 vehicles have been recovered. He says living occupants were detained. He alleges humans communicated with some of them through a form of consciousness-based interaction.
He says the U.S. can detect certain signatures produced by the craft. He claims he saw some classified results of reverse-engineering work. And perhaps most importantly, he says he knows facilities that authorized investigators could physically inspect.
